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Deep Concealment Requirements and Discussion

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:13 pm
by whitehood
I want this to be a discussion on the weapons used for what is called "Deep Concealment" and is when you absolutely don't want to anyone to know that you're carrying and what you're carrying. It's not quite the same thing as "Concealed Carry." As I, Whitehood, will once again, shortly be changing my home from rural America to big city USA, at least for a short while, I find the discussion interesing to say the least. Here in rural NM just about no one including local LEO care very much if or what you're carrying and where, especially if they know you, carry permit or not. I just love rural peace officers. However, in the big city, the rules change, and even a concealed weapon that is printing can get you into trouble. In addition, while in NM, I'm not concerned about being behind the power curve in terms of firepower, in the city, I just might be. Keeping that in mind, my concerns in terms of a deep carry weapon are that of the threat itself. More and more, the gang problems is becoming more evident with the threat becoming multiple bad guys, now carrying better weapons and with at least a modicum of how to use them tactically. Lets start talking by first deciding on the type of weapon ( revolver vs semi-auto), capacity and caliber.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:32 pm
by whitehood
First lets talk about caliber. IMHO I have to reject the 380, keeping in mind that this excludes a lot of very excellent weapons including my favorite, the Bersa Thunder, the well proven Kahr, as well as the new pistols from S&W and Ruger. When every shot counts, especially with the high probability of decreased capacity in your chosen weapon, every hit must hit hard and that excludes the 380. I think the dark horse of cartridges is the new 327 Ruger. Also IMHO, the 45 ACP, the 40 and the 357 Sig are too much in terms of flash and recoil for accurate followup shooting, especially in low light conditions. That leaves only two choices, the 9mm and the 38/357. Both are common calibers with easy availability of practice ammunition. Premium manufacturers also have bullets matched to short barreled pistols.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:59 pm
by whitehood
Now the decision is revolver vs sem-auto. This is a hard one. You know the revolver is going to work everytime and has second strike capability. IMHO the 357 is too much cartridge for a small revolver which in practical terms here is a snubbie with a 2 inch barrel. The exception is the Ruger SP101 with the 3 inch barrel. ( S&W may make a similiar one ). The 38+P cartridges made for the snubbies puts the weapon on its hind legs. The new revolvers made by Ruger, the LCR, and the S&W Bodyguard are state of the art in this regards. They're well thought out and the addition of laser sights help the distance problem. Two problems with the revolver. The first is capacity and with the 38 you only get five shots. The 327 Ruger cartridge which shows lots of promise gives you 6 but ammunition for practice can be pricey. The second is that while the snubbies are inherently accurate, they are difficult to shoot accurately tactically at any distance. The lasers help this with adequate training, but still it's something you have to count on and it wastes times in the majority of situations. I think the green ones are way cool.

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:21 pm
by whitehood
IMHO the semi-auto rules, however the cardinal rule of the semi-auto, especially with subcompact weapons is reliability. Also as a rule the smaller the semi-auto the less reliable it is and the engineering involved in these weapons is a bit different from larger pistols. This is what I think the semi-auto provides. The deep concealed carry semi-auto will provide a larger capacity and in some that advantage will be substantial especially if you just happen to need it. You're also going to have a longer barrel with a minimum of 3 inches which will provide greater inherent accuracy. You're not going to be behind the firepower curve if you're facing two bangers armed with Sigmas. ( sorry, had to get that one in tig ).

PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:13 pm
by whitehood
Here's how Whitehood rates them and I'm going to start off with a dark horse pistol and one that breaks the 9mm rule. It's the Glock 36. It packs 7 rounds of 45 ACP into a very slim package that has a 3.78 inch barrel. That means that the very excellent 185 +P cartridges will generate enough velocity to do some serious damage. The weapon is a fight stopper. You get the legendary Glock reliability and reasonable accuracy in a very nice price. The downside is the 7 round capacity ( 6 in the mag ) and the associated recoil of the 45 ACP in grips that might not fit every hand. The fourth gen pistol should solve most of this. More importantly and as always the G36 will need a holster of some sort and it's not the sort of weapon you can just drop into a pocket like revolver.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:24 pm
by Will_Carry
I carry a Glock 36 with a Crimson Trace laser guard. It's a great carry piece. I have one standard magazine and one +1 extended magazine. I also carry a Smith and Wesson Chief's Special with a 3" barrel. It was made back in the 70s and is a fine revolver. My 3rd carry pistol is a Glock 19 4th gen. The Glock 36 is just a hair smaller than the Glock 19.

My back up gun is a Diamondback DB380 that I am very happy with. It fits in my vest pocket. It is my deep concealment pistol too.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:58 pm
by whitehood
I never expected anything but the very best from you will. The G36 is about as big as you can get for deep carry, but still it fits the bill.

Here's another and from my standpoint it's among the very best. It's the SIG 239. Legendary Sig accuracy and reliability in a small enough size with 8+1 capacity in 9mm. It's the choice of many professional bodyguards. Again, on the upper limits of size for deep concealment, not to mention the price tag. It has it all.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:59 am
by BrianB
I was wondering whitehood, if you would be kind enough to give some examples of what you mean by deep conceal over conceal. I read your posts so far and understand what you mean about the rural area vs the city area but still not quite sure.

Obviously, yes, printing could be a problem but the size of the weapon is not necessarily a problem to avoid printing, just the correct way to dress. For me for instance, I wear a Sigma .40 in a crossbreed pretty much every day and every where I go and no one knows. At times I may have it under two shirts and a coat but other times with simply a T-shirt covering it. Now if some one were to pat me down, yeah, they would find it, so is that something we are talking about as deep conceal, being unable to find it in a pat down?

Or maybe, going by what you have said so far you are using the term concealment, maybe its just a matter of its mostly covered but people may more or less know but people and law enforcement are cool with it?

As to weapon, I would agree that 9mm is really a great choice because they can be found in relatively small to large handguns as well as the very low cost of ammo. A medium sized 9mm, maybe such as my Taurus PT111 for a size example, would be small enough to conceal relatively easily yet give its holder a sufficient amount of ammo to reliably see them through most any situation the average American could possibly face.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:40 am
by JustBen
Good conversation WH. I agree with your position and recommendations.

For normal concealed carry, I carry a compact Glock 23 in .40 that holds 14 rounds plus two extra magazines from a Glock 22 that hold 30 rounds for a grand total of 44 rounds. I want the extra magazines in case one jams or I panic and drop it on the floor by accident. I also want a "real gun" in my hands if I am confronted with multiple attackers, and one that I can shoot accurately from concealement in less than 2 seconds. I have a beautiful wife and 5 kids to protect.

As a back up I carry a Smith and Wesson J frame 340CT in .357. Very light and powerful. Not a primary carry weapon though. It is not accurate and I cannot practice much with it. This weapon is for the real last second ditch effort to save your life in an ugly fight. IMHO it is a fighting gun and not one for use more than a few feet away.

I also carry a BlackHawk Hornet II 3.1 inch folder and a lightweight aluminum expandable batton. This way I can meet any threat with an appropriate level of weapon.

I agree that 9mm would be better for your primary autoloader and that .38 is better for your snubbie, but what the heck I like the extra power and I am confident in my handling abilities.

For deep concealment where I am afraid of being checked, I agree you need other options. At that point I would have to analyse the situation and possible threats. There are some cases where I will only have my LCP .380 on me for just that reason, and others where I would like to have my AR15 under my overcoat.

Your best defense weapon is your mind. make conscious decisions about your weapons and clothing, assess threats, and have back up plans. Plus get training from the best in the business if you can.

PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2010 11:38 am
by whitehood
Brian, I don't think there is a strict definition of concealed carry vs deep concealed as there would be with open carry. Deep concealement would be considered when you absolutely have to be sure that the weapon is not visible in any way shape or form and is the realm of pocket pistols. Clearly I've rejected the little ones, but that's my arbitrary position. Concealed carry would be more in the range of an IWB concealed by a coat or perhaps a shirt and involved medium to perhaps full sized weapons.