Birdshot vs. intruders?

No competent instructor in tactical shotgun would agree with birdshot except in very very select situations. Once the pattern of birdshot spreads beyond what the palm of your hand can cover you won't get reliable penetration. If it's cold and they have heavy clothes on it gets a lot less. What you might do is just piss the guy off. You are trying to recover your nightvision and he is coming after you. This might right then and there or maybe later.

 

I would think that in an intruder situation, distances across a room or down a hallway, the birdshot isnt spreading much. I would bet that birdshot would do the job in a home invasion situation quite well. Over penetration might not be as much as an issue either.

 

1911 nut I dont agree with you. To much spread. More than likely to just maim or piss them off even more. Better go buckshot.

 

1911, beyond 15 feet birdshot is pretty much spent as a penetrator with a shot spread of about 6 to 12 inches.

 

That's an excellent way of putting it. Multiple torso hits from a shotgun have a very high one shot stop percentage, much much better than a pistol.

 

There are two lessons here. One is that when it comes to home defense is that a pistol is what you use to defend yourself till you can get to the shotgun. The second is that no matter how much you love them, your dog is a bullet magnet as well as an early warning system.

 

Any dog that barks is a good one. Besides the smaller he is, the less of a target he makes.

 

We have an aussie cattle dog that barks at people a mile a way. Most times when she barks I look out and nothing can be seen but she obviously is hearing something. I have no doubt she would attack someone as she is very leary of strangers and gives them the evil eye when they come over.

 

Go with 3 inch mag (if your shotgun will shoot it, I've had a few that will only eat 2 3/4's, but hey, those work damn well too) 00 or 000 (my pick, 15 bigger projectiles, albeit 3 fewer per shell than the 18 pellet 00).



Gotta watch the remington's 00-000 ammo though, I've fired a few where it took 2 strikes on the primer, and one where it took 3 :-( Hard to find the federal's around here, winchester's are somewhat easy to find at certain times during the year.



In a bad situation, that just wouldn't do, but you have to plan for that also, because if something can fuck up it will fuck up at the most fucked up time. So be mentally prepared to rack another one in quick, practice it, because...shit happens, ya know.



A buddy of mine, whose dad used to own a gun shop that he basically grew up in, likes to keep it staggered in a mossberg 500 he "customized" himself. 00, slug, 00, slug, 00, slug, or in his words, "punch a hole, clean it out."



More food for thought, what about 3 1/2 in nitro steels BB size, shot through a turkey choke? You've got an extended range and pattern consistency, plus a bump up in velocity. From what info I've gathered, the nitro steels don't over penetrate, due to being lighter than the lead shot, but I'm not sure as I haven't field tested the 3 1/2 nitro steels.



At close range (under ten yards, using a good full choke, one you can drop a dime down the barrel and it gets stuck about an inch from the killin' end is a good judge), #4 shot would work, but I haven't been convinced of it's lethality at any further distance after hunting with it for some 20 years. Good for squirrels though, some say six or 5, hell I like to use 7 1/2 for the tree rats (simple fact of price).

 

I'll have to disagree with what you've said arez. Many of the shotgun gurus like Gabe Saurez say there is little advantage in using anything more than 7 1/2 mid brass if you're going to use bird shot and the use of bird shot in tactical situations is a rare thing and should be well considered.

Secondly all buck shot is not created equal. The best is plated and buffered. You'll get much better patterns as well as range with a 9 pellet load like that with a 3 inch loaded with 12 to 15 pellets. Magnum doesn't exactly mean magnum with buckshot. A lot of the loads that are marketed as magnum are simply hype and they feature more pellets at lower velocities. What happens with these buckshot loads is that these softer pellets without buffering material get deformed as they travel through the barrel and then begin colliding with each other producing fliers. The disruption of the shot column after is leaves the barrel also caused the pellets to lose velocity more quickly.

Finally if you going to use a turkey choke in a self defense shotgun put a decent sight on it and use Tri Ball which is a tungsten alloy shot. It's still lethal approaching a hundred yards and will give a vest a run for its money.

PS, there not much of an advantage of using 3inch vs 2 3/4 in a pump and absolutely none is you're using an semi auto.

 

I think ive misunderstood the point you are trying to make. Shoot a deer center mass at 20 yards with 7 1/2 mid brass and 00 buck and see what happens. Ive got a friend that is paralyzed now from a bird shot gsw, whereas he'd be planted right now if the guy that shot him would have used 00. If that was the case LEO would be packing bird shot instead of 00. I'm sure shotgun gurus know there shit, or else they wouldn't be a guru. However, when it comes to practicality, and judging from my experiences using both loads at similar ranges and a deer's similar bio structure/frame to that of a human (the hide is a little thicker of course, but imagine a man wearing a thick leather coat), 7 1/2 doesn't penetrate like a 3 inch 00 or 000. There is a reason these shells are manufactured with full brass and half or mid-brass. I've shot both in similar applications, 00 & 000 makes them drop and bird shot makes them run off to die of lead poisoning. Everyone has their own opinion, and both loads can be lethal at a distance where whatever you're shooting gets hit with the wadding, but at thirty yards I'm pretty sure I'd have a better chance at survival if shot with 7 1/2 as opposed to 00. I'll shoot clays with 7 1/2, large living things if need be with 00 or 000. Plating and lower velocity is a moot point at ranges I'm speaking of, as plain lead shot kills just as dead as nickel or steel. With plated loads at those high velocities, you may run into the problem of over penetration. When it comes to holes center mass for air to go in and blood to come out of, 15>9, and anything over 35 yards, you should probably be firing a single projectile, like a sabot slug or I'd prefer a rifle and then all of this just becomes bullshit apples to oranges.

 

Couple videos for comparison



1st is 7.5 bird shot field load, it shows both a 1st, (or front) wall, then a second (or back) wall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQngI_r2hQc



2nd is 00 buckshot, shows 1st wall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKHcNrvT93E&feature=channel



Same shot showing back wall with the 00 buckshot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyyYxYFvwfE&feature=related



Personally, it seems either load will be detrimental to an intruder, the 00 looks to go much further though.

 

For home defense, I believe a pump action shotgun has some advantages over a pistol. First, the sound of racking a shell into the chamber is unmistakable and a great incentive for an intruder to cooperate. Inside of a house, unless you live in a mansion, the shot won't spread out enough to reduce stopping power. The shot will have less of a chance to harm your neighbors, especially if you live in a condo. Since a shotgun is a point and shoot weapon, great accuracy is not required in a high stress situation. If the moron intruder decides to attack directly into a large bore like a 12 ga. shotgun, he's probably high on something and no matter how many clothes he has on, he'll get pushed back hard at the very least. If he can get up to attack, a shot to the legs, crotch, or head will keep him down.

 

Good comments Robalan. We also need to plan in advance for the legal aftermath. Keep your piece ready so you can spend those precious few seconds calling 911 if you can. A good recording with all the right words on it before the loud bang will help you in court. It will also help if there is no one else there to testify against you .

The recording might sound like this "Stop, Go away, I have a gun, If you dont stop I will shoot, Bang-Bang, Stop, Bang".

Your discussion with the law afterwards should be minimal. "I thought I was going to die. I thought he was going to kill me. I will cooperate once I am with my attorney".

In a stressful situation you might forget this stuff and even your address of where 911 should send the LEO, so write it all down on a 3x5 card just in case.

Happy shooting !

 

It all depends on where you live. You choose the right tool for the job. I live in an area where houses can be as close as 20 feet apart. As a wise man once said, be sure of your backstop. If I shot a .357 in my house, it could quite conceivably pass through an intruder, my wall or window, my neighbor's wall or window, and into my neighbor (most of them I like). I'd rather replace some drywall, than a good neighbor (I might get a bad one later). I live in the next county over from the land of Daley and he still has big pull on the media and politicians. If I were to drop an intruder all the way down, it wouldn't matter how well documented my case was, I would need a lawyer and someone to feed the dogs for a while. It behooves me to get an intruder to cooperate if at all possible. If I have to fire, then I would only want the intruder to be out of commission and no one else.

 

Brad, the racking your shotgun for the intimidation thing is strictly Hollywood. The only thing you're doing is wasting precious time and risking a short stroke malfunction if you have a pump gun. The only sound should be the safety coming off. You're giving away something tactically by racking the slide. It's a stupid manuever. Glasers solve the problem of over penetration and if you really want a long weapon get a carbine and put a laser on it. With birdshot, you're using the shotgun. as a carbine anyway

 

It must be nice to live in an area where one doesn't need to show restraint to blow away an intruder. I don't have that option. Even if I had video of the whole encounter, I would still have to cool my heals in custody while the media extolled the virtues of a scumbag and denigrated me as a murderous vigilante. I don't have the financial or political resources to avoid that kind of confrontation. My "stupid" maneuver is reality based on where I live and not out of Hollywood. The racking of a shotgun after a command to freeze, is an exclamation point to promote cooperation and reduce the likelihood of bloodshed. If the scumbag flees, I am not authorized by law to stop him by any means necessary. I am only able to defend myself and others in the case of eminent threat of life, not property. If I were to shoot an intruder anywhere other than an obvious frontal assault, I would be serving time.

I would like to have the castle doctrine become law throughout the country but I live in one of the states that doesn't even allow any non-law enforcement carry for self protection. The political attitudes are changing at a glacial rate in Illinois but, we still are moving them in the right direction.

How much fragmentation occurs with a Glaser round going through 2 windows? How much does that fragmentation reduce the lethality of the round in 20 feet?

 

It is my understanding that if an attacker heads towards my children, I can shoot him in the back if I have to. Of course you cannot shoot someone who is running away. And yes, I love living in Ohio. You folks in liberal land Illinois and Wisconsin should consider a move.

 

Moving would not be a solution. This is my land where I have my roots. If you don't defend your land the best you can, how can you look at yourself in the mirror? If someone doesn't stop the liberal/progressive infection by staying and fighting, it will become gangrenous. Think of me and those like me as the antibodies surrounding the cancerous cells of Chicago nibbling it away, hoping it doesn't spread or spawn a new malignancy. The tumor is big and nasty. Sometimes a virulent piece gets away to grow in fertile environs (Obama) but we continue to push against the disease with what we have. The ISRA, and the Second Amendment Foundation were the primary support for the McDonald vs Chicago / Supreme court case with the NRA and others providing support. I think we did pretty good. It could be better but, every victory helps.