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Conservative Response to Liberal Gunman

Get informed and debate about civil rights and legal issues such as concealed carry, self-defense, and gun control.

Postby Tralik33 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:31 am

No worries Lib, I'm just enjoying the conversation.



I think what this whole thing really boils down to is whether or not the Government can or even should try to shape and mold society. It sounds as though you feel that way. On the other hand, I feel that it is a fool's errand at best with no chance for success. The problems you speak of in all instances come down to individual morality and decision making. I simply don't think the government can influence an individual on that level as what you are asking them to do is in all reality become the "thought police".



I also want to address the discrimination issue. I am a 33 year old white mail. I'm 6'-4" tall, 215lbs, athletic build and while I'm no male model, I'm fairly attractive. I have it made, right? I think the playing field might be a little more even than you might suspect. I've been denied scholarships in favor of minorities that were less qualified. I've been passed over for promotions in favor of lesser qualified women in order to meet affirmative action quotas. I've also been discriminated against for being a Christian. In fact, I think the argument can be made that the white male is the single most discriminated against group in the country today. But, you don't see the middle age white man in the street protesting. You know why? Because we don't expect others to solve our problems for us. Everyone is discriminated against for something at some point in their life. Maybe it is because they are fat, maybe it is because they are skinny, ugly, smell, are disabled, old, or are missing a few teeth or because their accent makes them sound dumb. The point is, minorities are not alone in discrimination, and never have been. It is human nature (unfortunately) to an extent that we find reasons not to like people, to seperate ourselves and cast aside those that we are not comfortable with for whatever reason. A government can not make people not feel and think the way they do. The only way those changes occur is slowly, over time, with a great deal of societal pressure. You change peoples minds by changing their hearts first. Government just can't do that, but they are sure willing to throw a lot of money at the problem trying. That has had a tendency to generate more animosity than it has good-will.



This is also the ongoing problem the militant gay-rights movement faces. They don't want to change hearts or minds, they want to force their belief system upon others. Rather than show through example how beneficial they can be to society by creating stable family-like units, by showing compassion and understanding and befriending those with different view, they would rather attack, go on the offensive, and generally berate and belittle anyone that does not think the same as them. You'd think it would be rather obvious that this tactic is counter-productive, but aparrently it is not.
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Postby LiberalGunman » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:28 pm

Tig, you misunderstood my post. I am NOT blaming you. I am blaming that system that puts soldiers in a position to be disabled and then denies their disability benefits. My point is that NO disabled vet should ever end up living in a car with his daughter. Not you, not anyone. I never condemned yours or any of our troops duty to our nation. Sorry if my post was unclear.
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Postby LiberalGunman » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:49 pm

Tralik-

It is truly unfortunate that affirmative action has done so much to create further division and resentment. But I think that if you are realistic you will see that this reverse discrimination examples are still outnumbered by minorities being descriminated against. More significantly, these situations you experienced rarely occur in the hiring and promotions at the upper-echelon level. When companies are paying million dollar salaries, they hire based on competency and who "fits the mold" with the rest of the guys sitting around the board room table or at the country club. This means that the "affirmative action" type laws and policies create a glass ceiling for advancement, and even worse, creates resentment among other middle management and lower workers. Talk about not feeling welcome at work.



As for your last paragraph, I challenge you to replace the words "gay-rights" in the first sentence with "conservative Christian" and tell me if you find that statement accurate as well.
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Postby Tralik33 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:04 am

I do not find that statement accurate at all. I live in the Bible belt and the people in this part of the country, the Christians in particular are the single most generous and giving people in the country. That's not hyperbole, that's fact. Religious based charities and organizations recieve more annually and as a result do more community service than any other group in the US. Do not mistake the wack-jobs you see on the major TV networks as representative of the Christian community in General. They are not. It is like the media goes out of its way to find the most ridiculous and extreme examples of people calling themselves Christians that they can find. They will only show the Christians that are standing on a street corner yelling at people telling them they are going to hell. They are no more representative of the Christian community than Hitler is to all the Germans alive today. I simply have never even met a Christian like the ones they show on TV all the time and honestly, I hope I never do because I'd have a hard time not beating the snot out of them for doing so much damage to the Christian image. (I know that sounds anti-christian in and of itself, but hey, I'm not perfect either).



The reality of the Christian community is that they by-in-large are an amazingly compassionate and generous group. I'll give you a real life example that happened just this week. The company I work for, American Ramp Company, was started by two friends, both my age, that meet in Church. The business grew out of one of their garages into a multi-million dollar business in just a few year to the point today where we are the worlds largest manufacturer and installer of modular skatepark equipment with sales around $12-$15 million annually. The company was formed and continues to operate as a "christian business". Obviously we follow the law and do not discriminate in any manner, for religion or otherwise, but, the owners still adhere and foster a Christian environment in the company including allowing a Bible study group to meet before work that is open to all employees. As a result, we have some of the best employees around because they know that the owners and others in the company care about them on a personal level. A few weeks ago, an hourly shop worker that had been with the company for a number of years started developing some serious medical complications. The illness was severe enough that he had exhausted all his sick days and vacation and was approaching the point of having to use the FMLA leave available to him, which of course is unpaid time off. This man's wife has also been chronically ill with severe medical issues and most of what he has made over the last few years has gone to her ongoing medical expenses. In short, an unpaid leave was going to put a major hurt on them, possibly forcing them to lose their home. Our CEO, aware of the situation started a spur-of-the moment fund raiser asking for donations from anyone willing to help out. We are a relatively small company with about 50 total employees. In one days time we put together over $3000 to help this guy out. That is an average of over $60 per person in an area where the average annual salary is around $25,000. Those are the kind of Christians I know. They are literally the type that would give you the shirt off their back, even if they never met you before. They are the ones that would not only stop to help you change a tire in the rain, but they'd also offer you a warm meal.



Now, I'll readily admit that there are those that you see on TV that can be just as militant and offensive as those in any other group, but they are by far the minority.



On the flipside, ironically, the city I live in, Joplin, MO, also has one of the highest per-capita populations of gays in the country and was, until recently, second only to San Francisco. I have known and worked with individuals who were gay and have been friends with more than a few. Even here in this predominantly conservative area, most of the gays I knew were pretty militant about gay rights. Not to the extreme that you see in San Francisco, but pretty out there nonetheless. I really don't think the two can be compared. I suppose it is possible that the militants have hi-jacked the gay-rights movement in the same manner that the media makes it look like the militant Christians have done with Christianity, but I haven;t seen much evidence that that's the case whereas it is really pretty evident to see in communities around the country that the local Church is having.
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Postby LiberalGunman » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:25 am

I think the extremists in any group are nut-jobs by in large. I haven't encountered many militant christians or gay-rights activists personally, but I know they exist. But I completely agree with the loving Chirstians you describe. Just know that you can find the same kind of people in other groups as well.
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Postby Tralik33 » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:18 am

This is true, no doubt about it. I guess my postulation was that by all outward appearances, the gay-rights movement "appears" to be rather militant when it comes to promoting their political agenda. I know that there are many many gays that are equally loving and generous, but they seem to remain quiet and refuse to refute and stand up to the militants. That is unfortunate because as I mentioned earlier, I believe their ultimate goals of acceptance and open integration into society are set back by the often offensive stance their more vocal counterparts present regularly.
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Postby agonist » Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:55 pm

That's absolutely true. The more you try to force someone to your point of view, the more they will be repelled by it. You can't legislate culture, it changes by natural evolution. Any attempts to do so generally have the reverse affect like affirmative action.

If I'm a buisness owner and hire a less qualified person of my own ethnic background and my buisness suffers, I might learn a lesson. If Im a buisness owner forced to hire a less qualified person because of a racial quota and my buisness suffers, I'm likely to become more hatefully prejudice and less likely to consider a minority for any other position if possible. A smart and successful buisnessman, if left to his own devices, will hire the best person for the job regardless of race. It's in his best interest to do so. This encourages people of all races and backgrounds to aspire to acheive and also encourages things like respecful behavior and civility.

Of course this also encourages people to conform to cultural morays. Some would say this is ethnically biased to which I say bullshit! When I was younger and involved in the music industry I had hair down my back, wore an earing and ripped up jeans (hooray for 1988!) do you think I was ever discriminated against? You're damn right I was but it was my concious choice to present myself this way. I had no expectations of a cushy job with a corner office! We all must conform in some ways. Real cultural change takes place over time and hearts and minds are won with reason not with force.

Only when reason has failed is force the answer.
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