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Postby whitehood » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:02 pm

I'll summarize it briefly

1) Of ten points I made about the Sigma there are EIGHT that Brian cannot or will not dispute.

2) I stated that after market trigger modifications have been associated with light primer strikes and FTF especially with hard primers. This is not disputable, only the rate at which it happens which I did not make a comment on.

3) Then there is the Sigma recovery rate in crime. As stated there are a variety of data bases which list recovered weapons. I can name another one , The NY Daily News article of this year which clearly shows a Sigma as the 3rd most recovered weapon by NYPD of that year. I also said that Glock would begin to make the list which it did twice. As these data bases enter the private domain the Sigma will become more prominent if only due production numbers. In the next few years this will not disputable at all.
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Postby tigwelder56 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:34 pm

Thank you as well. Now that both positions are posted for public review, can I request an end to this seemingly endless debate? It's time to let the reader decide whom they follow or don't. There are many that won't care one way or the other. The endless repetition serves no purpose. Discussion is welcome, arguing is not. Please use the private messenging option for any further heated arguments. Thanks to both of you for your help.
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Postby BrianB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:45 pm

Tig, you say that you feel that most won't care about this conversation. I would really like to hear from others as to their thoughts, have my efforts really been for nothing? How do these people feel about the subject and the Sigma involved?



Looking up NY daily news -

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/06/20/2010-06-20_bill_could_help_trace_all_bullets.html



Ah, thank you WH for a bit more of a clue as to where this information comes from for you. Still does not point out the Sigma specifically, nor "clearly" but does picture one with the stat of "125 S&W 9mm pistols", a grouping yet again, very good. No doubt a good portion at least is Sigma yet still, the information is a grouping, not a single particular model. Kinda sucks that 170 total Glocks find their way on to this top ten list, though separated by caliber. No separation at to specific model number though either.



So, to draw some conclusions from this, in NY state, as well as other articles concerning the choice weapons of "gang bangers" which would normally fall into the younger criminals hand. Also, taking that these articles have stated that these gangbangers prefer semi autos, then there is a good chance that Glocks, as a whole, are the #1 choice of the gang banger.



Hi point 9mm comes #2 with 157. Certainly the argument of price point could be valid that you have brought up many times about the Sigma WH. So this leaves the 125 S&W 9mm in 3rd, again, when it comes to the semi-autos.



Now, let me get to my point here, and Tig, this is why I have gone through all this trouble. Only when the subject of the Sigma has come up has WH made statements about preferred guns of gang bangers. I don't see it discussing Glock, no, only that Glocks are fine weapons of choice for anyone. WH, what would be a good starter gun for a woman? perhaps a man as well? A 38 revolver many say? No mention of it being the highest recovered handgun involved in crimes over all.



I also notice WH, that you did indeed do some back tracking during this conversation, bringing up other types of guns that have been and also some that are currently on these lists such as Ruger and Glock. Up to this point though I just was not seeing this from you.



So perhaps we could stop scapegoating the Sigma? Or if you do, bring up Glock 1st and foremost, hi-point, Ruger and the 38 revolver as well. Oh, and don't forget Bryco, Raven and Mossberg.



Tig, you ask to end this and I am not going to go any further, at least until you and I have privately discussed this further. Until then though, I would appreciate you leaving it open for others to discuss. That is, after all, the whole point of a message board, is it not?
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Postby whitehood » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:31 pm

Further discussion serves no purpose other than to promote discord. For me it stops now. If Brian wants to private message me then fine.
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Postby tigwelder56 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:22 pm

I think an end to this is in the best interest of the forum. If anyone feels the need to continue this seemingly endless disagreement, please feel free to continue it on a private basis. While it's true that all forums have been established to discuss issues publicly and openly, there are also rules of conduct and terms of service (where appropriate) to control and contain topics. Especially when they begin to, or have gotten volatile.



I have no idea why so much attention is being paid to the Sigma in the first place. It's an average, low cost semi auto, that has had it's own share of problems, obviously. But most of those issues have been resolved. So what's the big deal? It's obvious that there are many individuals with personal opinions on it. Your individual thought of the weapon are just that, your own. I've never seen a single firearm on this forum that stirred up more input, good, bad or indifferent, than the Sigma. If we could do away with the first generation model, none of this would be nearly as discussed as it currently is. Brian, if there are others that are as interested in discussing this handgun, as you and the others currently involved in the discussion are, feel free to do so. I welcome anyone and everyone that is interested in discussing the good and bad points of the Sigma Series of pistols. It was improper of me to have dismissed the thoughts and impressions of the rest of you. So please, accept my apology and post your ideas and impressions of this weapon. But please do it in a civil manner. That's all I asked for in the first place and all I expect in the end.



The number of active moderators amounts to two currently. One of two is an active duty Army Soldier currently stationed overseas, pending deployment to the sandbox. He joined this forum to provide a service to all of our members, as did I. I don't feel that all of this bickering back and forth is providing anything positive to the forum in general. Why should the limited moderation staff be required to police one single subject, the Sigma? There are many additional duties we are being kept from, due to the refusal of a few others to control their disagreements and irritation of one another's opinion, it affects everyone else. If those of you that continue to feel the need to argue the issue, and I stress ARGUE, do it on your own time and in the private messaging section. Thank you.
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Postby BrianB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:50 pm

Tig, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. As to moderation, I feel it is always best to discuss this type of thing in private when possible. However, since you have brought it up publicly, I will also share my thoughts publicly, to a respectful degree.



first, the interest of the forum and subject of volatile posts. I do believe I have controlled myself well in the public aspect, even in private, I am not volatile.



Why should it affect the topic that a person or two decides to act poorly? WH made the post "Further discussion serves no purpose other than to promote discord." I disagree, discord is on the shoulder of those that act out in a childish manner but have no bearing as to the worthiness of discussion of the subject itself. My discussion points are to resolve an issue, not cause discord. Nothing will be resolved otherwise. Attempting to lock it down only causes further discord.



I am not so sure of the reason for so much disagreement either concerning one weapon. How responsible discussion can be considered a bad thing though is beyond me. Discussion is what brings people to a board and bringing more people to a board is normally what board owners want.



As to the moderation itself, its hard to find willing and responsible moderators and you are a very good at what you do. If someone can not appreciate your efforts then they clearly do not understand the amount of work you do nor the responsibility involved.



In saying that though, to the one point of having to moderate one subject so much, my answer is this. this was a small board, relatively speaking, when I got here and has gotten smaller since due to many leaving for other boards. There is not a huge amount of time to be wasted when this is one of the few topics that is actually having any real discussion at all.



Anyways, I do not plan on breaking any rules of conduct and hope to continue being a very good poster here. I do plan though, on maintaining my position on this with whatever evidence is at hand if there is reason to. If that evidence points in another direction, so will my position.
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Postby tigwelder56 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:00 pm

Thank you, your position is noted.
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