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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:31 am

Here is an interesting article, not to say it proves anything on the subject at hand specifically, just interesting and perhaps there is a little bit of connection here because of the time frame.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/gun0920a.htm



Basically, alot of firearms recovered in the 90s in criminal cases were arms sold by police departments. Some were old revolvers but Glocks are also mentioned and I could only assume, out of the thousands sold, many more brands as well. Perhaps this could be were some of these guns at that top ten list came from? Here is one quote.



"The bureau created a computer code to identify those crime guns. Using that code, The Denver Post analyzed thousands of ATF firearms tracing records from 1994 through 1998. The results: At least 2,821 times, crime-gun traces requested by law-enforcement agencies nationwide ended at the doors of other law-enforcement agencies."
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Postby whitehood » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:33 am

They had short production runs, while the Sigma is still going strong. Sigma took up where Bryco, Lorcin, Raven et all left off.

In the past, the criminal element as I'll call them wanted a cheap, reasonably reliable, easily obtainable weapon was would be disposable if used. Revolvers predominated, along the the Lorcins et al. But once the supply was exhausted they had to turn to something else. Here was a cheap, DAO pistol with no external controls that could be operated while the user was FUBAR, just by pulling the trigger. The trend in the criminal element has been toward semi-auto, high capacity weapons, usually 9mm but now 40's. This is the other trend in that many of them are getting a modicum of training and with groups like the Zetas more than a little training.
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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:53 am

Another link - Here is a study done during a 5 year period during the later part of the 90's in California. In it there is a listing of a sample of guns traced back in sales and such. It says it is a random sampling. On it is one Sigma out of 3 S&Ws, the other two being a 910 and a 147. An interesting note is that the highest majority of this sampling is Glock, with 4 spots, two are 9mm and two are .40. Seems Glock was the choice weapon in California by these young "gang bangers".



http://www2.law.columbia.edu/fagan/courses/law_socialscience/documents/Spring_2006/Class%2028-Guns/Wintemute_Life%20Cycle%20of%20Crime%20Guns.pdf



As to the production time, I have shown that the 900 series guns ran through thesame time frame, though the numbers themselves are not found. The Sigma was not started till 94 so only six years of its history could be used in this. Not to say some could not be used, obviously what I just posted says some were, but there is no doubt it was not the only one. The sampling leaves it very questionable as there is absolutely no supporting evidence that the Sigma is even one of the top choices of gangbangers. Of course it is in there, but so are many other weapons, regardless of price or production time. Glocks are generally more expensive than Sigmas correct? Basically, there is no evidence to make such a claim whatsoever.



Anyways, I think I have done more than enough work here, work in which should be provided against my own argument by you rather than myself. If you have something that can show The Sigma as having such a large spot in the crime scene as has been claimed please let us know. Otherwise, I am done.
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Postby whitehood » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:02 pm

Please Brian. A sample of 3? The fact that a weapon was taken out of production usually means it's not selling. Fact, the weapons used in past surveys are in low production or not in production except the two making semi-autos Smith and Ruger. Another fact. They're all relatively low cost. No Sigs or H&K's. Besides this is the only thing you have on the Sig. You can't even begin to refute the engineering issues on the weapon, nor its problems.
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Postby tigwelder56 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:08 pm

I think we've had enough research and development information on the Sigma. Let's find an end point for this discussion and deliver it. This has been going on long enough. Our thanks for all of the information.
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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:23 pm

I don't understand how Sig fell into this discussion, nor even H&k. As to the sample of 3, I have provided any information I can through at least three links to help support your own argument and have failed. As far as I can find, the info is simply not there to support you. The point here is you need to show your proof. At this point the only thing I can think of is that you don't have any proof to show, you are going by what you surmise and that is just not good enough, at least not for me. Perhaps others feel you are right, maybe they could speak up and/or find your evidence for you since you are unwilling.



Hell, I would not care if it were true, it would not bother me in the slightest nor would it tarnish my feeling about the weapon. I don't like seeing someone spread information though that they simply will not support. I don't care who a person is, they are not given immediate credit for anything they say. Everybody has to back themselves up, yet you refuse to. There is really no point in saying anything more than, "Here is the information to back up what I say." and leaving a link to a legitimate story if you want to be believed.
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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:25 pm

Tig, the end is simple. Whitehood has made a claim and we are all waiting for something that backs him up. Otherwise he needs to admit that he must have gotten it wrong. There is your end point.
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Postby tigwelder56 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:50 pm

This has gone on long enough. Do me one favor, hell, do us all a favor. What is the issue here? It has gone on so long, I have lost the reason for the disagreement here. What was said by both parties that lead to this debate? Be brief as possible. Thanks.
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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:09 pm

Okay Tig, no problem. There are two points of contention here. The first and foremost is the claim that The Sigma is the choice weapon of "gangbangers" and is one of, if not the, most recovered guns by law enforcement involved in crime. Now, I could care less if that was the case, I could even see the possibility because they do sell it at a low price. However, I have found nothing to substantiate his point and he has refused to provide anything either.



I also think it is odd that it does not matter the question or discussion, WH is going to throw that in somewhere. Why? What is the point of this? If someone says they like the Sigma, he will come across and say it. If someone asks something about Sigma, he will come out and say this. From his point of view you would almost have to think that anyone that buys one must be a gang banger. "Should I get a Sigma?" "No, those are gang banger guns." What is the point? It seems just as obvious that a criminal will use a Glock as a Sigma, it has nothing to do with the gun itself. Frankly, I am sick of hearing it, at least without something showing his point.



Then there is the fact that it is a gun, regardless of who is buying it or why. Deciding to label a gun as purely a Gang banger gun is the only type of ammunition the anti-gun crowd needs to decide to make more laws that effect us all. All together it is a misleading and damaging statement and there is no reason for it.



I hope that gets the point across on issue #1.



#2. I showed a way to reduce trigger pull which was immediately followed by him stating that it would cause light strikes on the primer. Now, there is no proof either way that it could or could not but it would be very hard to understand how so. In case you don't know what I mean, I am talking about the pigtail spring in the sear block which is found in the grip. The striker spring is obviously in the slide and not part of the suggestion. I ask for any type of info at all that shows pull this spring out could possibly cause light strikes.



I do agree though, this has really gone on long enough. I have bent over backwards to allow WH to show something, helped him out as much as I could even, but no results. Like I said in my last post, time to prove it.
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Postby tigwelder56 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:59 pm

Thank you for the explanation of your position. You have every right to make your position known and now that it is, there's no need to repeat it. I expect the same of Whitehood and if he chooses to post his position in kind, it will be then that I feel an end to this has been achieved. This forum, as are the rest, an area that people can share thoughts and ideas. When two knowledgeable people disagree, it shouldn't be turned into an argument that evades control. You're free to debate anything, as long as they're factual and friendly. Since we don't have an Arbiter here, it's the choice of the reader to decide which explanation they choose to accept. As I said before, when the discussion gets heated and there appears to be a loss of decorum, I'm going to get involved.



It appears to me that a time line has been overlooked. WH has mentioned that his dislike of this firearm was based on the early generation Sigmas, not the latest models. There are dozens if not hundreds of reports filed or articles written by various authors and agencies that support the position of both of you. But the discussion gets muddied by the manufacturerers variations, which equate to generational differences. I swear, the argument over the Sigma, it's reliability and the class of people that have and do own it, will never end. That is, until we end it...
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