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Postby lotsip81 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:06 pm

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BrianB

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Posted: 1/2/11 9:10 AM

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Well Whitehood, I have looked and looked and I have yet to really find anything about anyone reporting that any trigger mod they did gave them too light a strike. There are though, many, many people saying that it "Could" happen.



It is my 'opinion' that changing out the striker spring, yes, could cause a light strike problem, as many others have expressed. It simply sounds very possible. This is said about every gun out there pretty much. The thing is though, that the striker spring is what controls the pressure of the firing pin. The Pigtail spring does not.



Some have also mentioned replacing one of the other two springs in the Sigmas sear with a spring from a ball point pin. I can see how this could help reduce pressure but I don't feel its necessary and maybe it could also cause a problem, I don't know.



Discussing the removal of the pigtail spring only though, as we were earlier when you claimed in would cause these problems, I have yet to read anything even resembling a complaint after doing this. All this does is take it down from the really high pull that these Sigmas come with to something in the range of a Glock. I am thinking it is more than likely, because this is a glock copy only with a stronger trigger pull, that this is simply an extra spring you would not find in a glock. If someone has a Glock and would be willing to take a look, perhaps they could confirm this theory for me.



Anyways, I asked for facts for the removal of the pigtail spring causing light stikes, you have yet to provide anything other than anecdotal proof however. Thanks though.
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Postby lotsip81 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:07 pm

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BrianB

Texas

Posted: 1/2/11 11:40 AM

Member (Mar 2010)

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Whitehood, I prove to you what I say is fact and if it is not, I say it is opinion. I take my statements very seriously and do everything I can not to mislead. You, on the other hand, want me to find an argument against myself for you. Why should I back you up? If you don't want to back up what you are saying is fact on something, why talk at all? Put up or shut up, that's all there really is to it in my mind at this point.



I don't expect you will try to put in the work but I want to remind you of exactly what I am looking for you to back up.



1. Pulling the pigtail spring, exclusively, out may give light strikes.

2. The Sigma is the choice of the gang-banger and used most often in crimes.
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Postby lotsip81 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:08 pm

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whitehood

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Posted: 1/2/11 11:58 AM

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Actually Ed you're probably out of here for that last statement and it will be deleted. The simple fact is that you got caught in a lie and you know it. In fact you're caught bin multiple lies. But this about the Sigma so I'll go over the facts for you and everyone else.

1) The Sigma had a long developmental history that was fraught with problems and in it's initial offering was a dismal weapon that

Left it with a bad reputation that persists to this day.

2) The trigger has always been a sore point.

3) Trigger modifications have been associated with light primer strikes, not helping the weapons rep. As stated previously and understood by those can read it was of concern with cartridges using hard primers such as military ammo.

4) The pistol has been improved significantly through the years in its VE variant.

5) The weapon has not been issued to ANY Federal or state LEA.

6) If there were local LEA sales they were rare and to small depts. You have to wonder how soon they were replaced.

7) Rarely approved as carry weapons for those agencies who allowed choice in weapons.

8) Never found in IPSC and would be very rare and transient in IDPA.

9) Was manufactured and marketed along a price point curve where choice was based upon price.

10) Is one of the most recovered weapons used in gun crime.
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Postby lotsip81 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:09 pm

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whitehood

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Posted: 1/2/11 12:10 PM

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Brian if you will read and understand I said trigger modifications as a general term and after market kits as a specific. What you are talking about is modifying what is essentially an introductory weapon with a history not only of reliability problems but with a problem trigger as well. if we want some objectivity here we can always ask Tig to call S&W and ask them about trigger modifications
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Postby lotsip81 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:11 pm

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BrianB

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Posted: 1/2/11 12:27 PM

Member (Mar 2010)

Posts: Weekly (242)







1) The Sigma had a long developmental history that was fraught with problems and in it's initial offering was a dismal weapon that

Left it with a bad reputation that persists to this day.



So I have heard, no argument there and that is why I feel the rep is worse than the quality at this point.



2) The trigger has always been a sore point.



Yep, again, I agree. My guess would be probably 90-95% of complaints are based upon the high trigger pull pounds and unwillingness for users to try more with this weapon before getting rid of it.



3) Trigger modifications have been associated with light primer strikes, not helping the weapons rep. As stated previously and understood by those can read it was of concern with cartridges using hard primers such as military ammo.



Again, yes, some mods may well cause a problem on many types of guns out there. I found cases of people stating that replacing the striker spring with a lighter one can lead to this easily. The problem however, is you followed this info after my statement about pulling the pigtail spring which I have not heard a peep from anyone no matter how hard I try, to find someone complaining about this specifically causing a problem. Please point this fact out if possible, if not then please state that you don't know that it would cause a problem.



You can ask S&W, sure, and I would bet they would tell you it is best not to modify any gun in any way. (Except perhaps by them) However, I would want them to explain specifically about the pigtail spring, whether its removal would cause the strike to be too light and if they have specifically tested for that.



4) The pistol has been improved significantly through the years in its VE variant.



Not disagreeing there.



5) The weapon has not been issued to ANY Federal or state LEA.



Would not know but I have heard this in many places, may be true and certainly no reason to debate it.



6) If there were local LEA sales they were rare and to small depts. You have to wonder how soon they were replaced.



Same as 5.



7) Rarely approved as carry weapons for those agencies who allowed choice in weapons.



Don't know, no debate going on that and don't care.



8) Never found in IPSC and would be very rare and transient in IDPA.



I don't have any interest in that one but give the benefit of the doubt.



9) Was manufactured and marketed along a price point curve where choice was based upon price.



I am sure there is some of that involved in every weapon made, without someone willing to pay for something a business won't survive. If the story is true that they were/are trying to market it to police, but not getting sales, they have to get them out there somehow to someone.



10) Is one of the most recovered weapons used in gun crime.



Again, I have asked for proof of this, an FBI report, maybe a state or city police report, something, but apparently its just because you say so.



You still leave the two questions I ask unproven.
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Postby BrianB » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:40 pm

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Postby whitehood » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:55 pm

Brian I don't think production numbers for first and second generation S&W semi-autos was ever very high and were primarily marketed toward LEO. While the third gen weapons did have a spike in sales it was a short spike as Glock, Sig, beretta and H&K began cleaning Smith's clock, especially in LEO sales. Civilian sales plummeted under Thompkins, its British owner at the time. The Sigma and its price point marketing changed that. You also have to remember that the truly excellent S&W third gen pistols were put out of production because of high cost along with a very poor profit margin, leading to Smith developing the M&P.
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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:33 am

Alright, so I have tried to come up with whatever info I can on all models of 9mm semi autos made by S&W. From what I can find, though some may be suspect channels such as Wikipedia, here is a list.



model 39 - Looks to be the first 9mm semi made by smith. Was meant for military use but in 1955 was put out commercially. How long they ran this model for, I don't know, but they are mentioned to be used at least through the Vietnam war by Navy Seals. Also, the Illinois State police are mentioned to have used this as a duty weapon. Looking at the S&W site, they are still selling magazines for this model, believe it or not, however it also says it fits the following models - 39, 439, 539, 639, 909, 952, 3904, 3906, 3944 and 3946. Thats quite alot of 9mm semi autos.



Model 59 - This is the large capacity version of the 39. Productions seems to have started in 1970, also tested by the Navy seals however not adopted and sold on the commercial market. production ended in 1980. A little early for the time of the article but ten years worth of production sold to the general public many could have found their way into criminal hands.



Model 459 - a further updated version of the 59. Don't know how many were made total but did find numbers that 800 of these were made for the FBI. Discontinued in 1988.



The 69 models - This was a basis for many 3rd generation models in the same family including the 469, 6904, 6906 and 6946 - Have not found info on how many were made nor when production started or ended.



Model 5903, 5904, 5905, 5906, 5946 - Seems these models all covered the 90's pretty well. Depending upon specific model, production started in 1989-1991 through 1999. Many used for various law enforcement agencies. Also sold commercially.



Model 900 series including 908, 909, 910 and 915 - Not alot of info found except that they seem to have started in about 1995 and were considered "budget" commercial guns at the time. I did find that the 952 is still in production but is one of the more expensive models.



So, despite the fact that the information is not as precise as I would really like it, it does show that there were plenty of 9mm semi auto choices available to the public, as well as criminals, covering the time of this article.



Something I will say of my own opinion and thoughts is that even those guns supposedly manufactured for the purpose of Law Enforcement by S&W, I would not doubt if they were also sold to the general public, perhaps even more so. Check out the Sigma series on the S&W site and many articles written about it and you can find statements about it being made for law Enforcement and even the "Choice" of law enforcement. So, going on the understanding that the Sigma is not a top choice of LEA's, how many of these other models, supposedly made for military or LEA use, were actually sold in higher numbers to the general public?



I really think this can throw further question as to whether the Sigma truly is the "choice weapon of Gangebangers" or even really one of the top. At best it can be found within a very large group that made it to #6 on the list. Hardly condemning evidence at this point and if you condemn this one you have to condemn many, many more along with it.
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Postby whitehood » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:56 am

The S&W alloy framed semi-auto's nomenclature is relatively easy to understand. First gen pistols have two digits like the 39, second gen three and third generation four. None are still in production and Smith has scratched them from their catalog. The third gen, while excellent pistols were expensive and had a poor margin. This was compounded by poor sales when S&W was owned by Tomkins PLC who made agreements with the Clinton Administration. Civilian sales plummeted. Smith was also slow out of the gate with the 40 cartridge which carried it name and was beaten by Glock. To make matters worse the Klintons ban on high capacity mags didn't help things and there was trend toward 1911's and 45 ACP's the latter which S&W didn't make. What it did make by the carload was the Sigma. While the third gen pistols were being destroyed, mainly by Glock, the Sigma which started production in 1994 went off like if you pardon the pun gangbusters. 16 later the Sigma is still being massively produced and purchased in large quantities. It's production run is now longer than just about generation of S&W semi-autos and produced in far greater numbers.
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Postby BrianB » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:15 am

From what I can find, the 900 series were sold in pretty decent numbers, were relatively cheap, and of pretty decent quality as well.



Now, I don't really know everything that makes a 1911 a 1911 but those 900 series guns have a somewhat similar look as far as I know.



Regardless though, there still is yet real evidence of the gangbanger choice discussion. With the limited amount of information to be found though, its hard to make a determination.
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